Policy-Discussion

[Evaldo Gardenali <evaldo AT gardenali.biz>]

Alejandro Mery Pellegrini (CAcert) escreveu:
> 2007/9/26, Iang 
> <iang AT iang.org>:
>   
> > Alejandro Mery Pellegrini (CAcert) wrote:
> >     
> > > > - In Spanish countries the surnames are a combination of the
> > > > parents names, in some formula I never quite understood.  I
> > > > suspect this can also have complications.
> > > >         
> > > It's pretty simple, it's not a combined surname, they are _two_ family
> > > names, one representing the family of the father and one the family of
> > > the mother. The child gets as first surname the first surname of his
> > > father and as second surname the first name of his mother. In normal
> > > life people only use the first family name (In my case just "Alejandro
> > > Mery", but on legal documents you _write_ both.
> > >       
> > (slightly offtopic)
> >
> > What happens for the next generation?  E.g., when you become
> > a parent, what single family name is then passed on to your
> > child?  And, does the formula change for the mother?
> >     
>
> The women don't change their names on marriage, that's not possible.
> And people can only change their names when they prove on court that
> their name is offensive.
>
> on each generation the family names are kept separated, and the same
> formula is applied each time. If the father has as surnames A0 A1, and
> the mother B0 B1, every son/daughter will have as surnames A0 B0, and
> if a woman of surnames A0 B0 marries a man with C0 D0 as surnames,
> their children will be C0 A0. Father's first family name goes first,
> mother's first family name goes next. Example. A woman may marry 5
> times, each time having one child, and she will always keep her family
> names, and each of her children will have a different first family
> name but the same second family name.
>
> On databases the "paternal surname" use a field and the "maternal
> surname" use another, because each may include spaces like "del Rio"
> (from the river)
>
> We don't have "middle names" as we don't need such trick to identify
> people because it's pretty rare to find two persons with the same name
> and the same family names.
>
> Additionally the first name it's usually not only one, the most common
> is to have two names, and some old people may have three or even four.
>
> In normal life people use only one of the "first names" followed by
> the first surname (Alejandro Mery), in formal writing one adds the
> second surname (Alejandro Mery Pellegrini) and in legal documents
> every "first name" has to be included (Alejandro José Mery Pellegrini)
> which is the case of the passport or id card.
>
> In the case of CAcert assuring the surnames are not a problem because
> you can simply add both on the field and everyone will be happy, but
> not on the case of the first names. People usually hide their other
> first names, and in many cases hate them. Also some families use the
> same first "first name" for every child, but call them using the
> second "first name", and they are known by the second "first name",
> and they actually don't answer for their first "first name". And, btw,
> their is no problem if you make a deposit on a bank using that "second
> first name" and only your first surname, but when signing a contract
> you shall use the "full one".
>
>
>   
> > Also, is this limited to Spanish speaking countries?  Does
> > Portuguese naming also follow this style?
> >     
>
> .pr/.br style is similar but not identical, they use the "maternal
> surname" first, and the "paternal surname" next.
>
>
> Cheers,
>   


Some examples from Brazil:

Neila Chamelet married Elias André Gardenali, and now she is called 
Neila Chamelet Gardenali
Of this marriage, Evaldo Gardenali and Evandro Gardenali were born (but 
this is unusual, see below)

Classic Example:
Maria Elídia Chamelet (known as Lídia) married Luiz Carlos Sotovia, and 
is now called Maria Elídia Chamelet Sotovia
Of this marriage, André Luis Chamelet Sotovia (known as André) and Luis 
Felipe Chamelet Sotovia (known as Felipe) were born.

MY OWN PROBLEMS:

Andrea Gardenal (/L$/i) is the father of Primo Giovanni Gardenalli 
(/LLI$/i), who is father of Elias André Gardenali (/LI$/i)
That happened due to notaries and immigration officers being unable to 
do their jobs properly in one way or another (maybe something like what 
happened in the US)
Current challenge: to get recognized as Andrea Gardenal's great grandson.
Achievement: To be recognized as Evaldo Gardenal (yeah, without the i) 
as a legitimate italian citizen
Possible Situation: a Brazilian passport with Evaldo Gardenali name and 
an Italian passport with Evaldo Gardenal name

Kind Regards
Evaldo Gardenali (I still have the i!)