Re: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST)
- From: Guillaume ROMAGNY <guillaume AT cacert.org>
- To: cacert-policy AT lists.cacert.org
- Cc: Peter Williams <home_pw AT msn.com>
- Subject: Re: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST)
- Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 17:22:40 +0100
- Openpgp: id=EB42B796
I had a pleasant time reading your comment. I guess I am not the only one.
So, just to make sure, the conclusion is we stick to the Policy Officer
model as proposed by the recent Ulrich motion on PoP changes, so we can
hope to be a public CA one day, isn't it?
@Ulrich, Ian: reading your crystal-clear summary of PoP changes, I guess
we can go for a vote. It seems we have had enough philosophical debates
so far about the Policy Officer, doesn't it?
Side Comment (kidding) : Please Moses (cast as the CAcert Board), move
your big stick to pick your new slave named CAcert Policy Officer.
Please bring us this pious soul so we can move on (ok, just a Prayer, if
needed, I can put a candle at Notre Dame de Paris)
Le 23/02/2013 16:41, Peter Williams a écrit :
> Contrary to the way Moses is presented to 5 year olds (in the basket,
> and all that), he was really a military thug. Quite a nasty creation.
> History can judge whether as a slaver he was better or worse than
> Pharaoh or Washington. Such persons seem to be in the same bucket. If
> they can, they will - when it comes to denigrating some human beings.
> Perhaps its the Chinese, today.
> The answer stated was correct - it is to find the notion of a covert
> operative “incompatible with” CAcert (and good morals).
> This leads to a dilemma. A moral person has to choose - ultimately be
> loyal to the national state (when called upon), or the consensus
> expressed by the community. In the moral model the US would have for
> others, given the way it operates itself, you have nice-friendly
> Moses-like forums like IETF do apparent governance - but recall that
> they are ALWAYS subject to the power and whim of IESG ..which actually
> holds 100% of the actual power “in trust”. If you look carefully, the
> relationships between members of IESG and US security aspects of
> communication policy are substantial. Its “personal”. You don't get
> there unless (a) you are good, and (b) you are “Trustworthy” (as
> Washington would have defined it). IN US culture, a CAcert is here to
> LOOK LIKE its locally governed - like an IETF WG.
> So a good policy officer, BECUASE OF the inevitability of collusion
> and conspiracy with others against the stated will of the collective
> state, NEEDS to be someone who can answer the following and state that
> s/he would go to prison. One should think of the anti WWI logician
> Russel, perhaps.
> If, via the policy officer trusted to keep secrets, a court orders
> CAcert current officers to issue a false cert (in a manner that 95% of
> folks would see as incompatible with the collective’s standards), what
> would that person do? Its hard to go to prison; and deny the court.
> But that's what it takes to be a “policy officer”. Or, for me, one has
> to say one WOULD (even if you comply, when the Moses-types get around
> to showing up with the big sticks). The point was made (much like an
> individual protester in Apartheid-era South Africa).
> This little analogy, going beyond the moses and slavery thing, comes
> down to the notion of being a public CA. A *public* CA (as in one
> whose roots are stuffed in commodity systems used by the public in
> browser etc) has no problem with the covert officer. Any qualms about
> being a private entity - when havin major crypto impact given the
> repercussions of compromise on public confidence - are soon dealt
> with, either by some money or by a personal shakedown.
> CAcert is NOT a public CA. Perhaps, it should remain a private CA; and
> accept its nature. If it has not needed a policy officer for 10 years
> (and no root is stored in the browser in that same 10 years), perhaps
> it does REALLY need a policy officer like it needs its root posted.
> I.E. it doesn't!
> ulrich AT cacert.org
> *Sent:* February 23, 2013 1:17 AM
> cacert-policy AT lists.cacert.org
> *Subject:* RE: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST)
> the next thing to consider
> simple changes is still a pain, as main policies are located
> within the critical system, and we're currently blocked since 2009
> to update the main policies according to policy group decisions :-P
> The simple way goes through filing a bug report and
> pass the changes via Software-Assessment
> (at least 2 software-assessors who did undergo an ABC process
> who checking the changes) and/or the critical admins
> (critical admins also did undergo an ABC process, so trusted personal)
> Since Oct 2012 we have an active Software-Assessment
> update cycle process so updates to the production system
> gets faster passed to the production.
> All changes will be checked based on the defined
> update cycle process by at least 10 eyes (!) principle
> 2 software-assessors
> 2 software-testers
> 1 critical admin
> 5 times 2 = 10 eyes ,-)
> This counts as an advantage that prevents
> going wild with unappropiate changes
> At least Arbitrators have to reread policies from
> time to time and will give notice that a policy
> requires an update according to the "minor changes"
> decision or rules, that a policy decision did not
> find its way under the main policy directory
> decision for RDL was given under p20100710
> Two months later, we still discussed updates on CCA
> assuming we can make progress in a short time
> so the motion
> Changes to CCA for RDL
> have been rejected :-P
> Now, over 2 years later, we see, that our expectation
> to make progress with an CCA update failed :-P
> and the NRP-DaL definition is still in there
> that still have been replaced by RDL back in July 2010 :(
> With https://wiki.cacert.org/PolicyDecisions#p20100306
> p20100306 Policy Officer makes minor adjustments
> this can be easily corrected, but here we are again
> at the point where the cat bites its tail :-P
> regards, uli ;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Guillaume ROMAGNY
> [mailto:guillaume AT cacert.org]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 12:35 AM
> cacert-policy AT lists.cacert.org
> Subject: Re: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST)
> Reading the thread including the Herod analogy, I really believe, in
> case we don't have an appointed Policy Officer, *we* can be the
> Not a physical officer but a moral body. At least, one of us (hoping not
> always the same (*), considered as a temporary tasked oriented Policy
> Officer) can do the minor changes, so we don't turn to *nobody* style. I
> guess it is community oriented and "Ian style compliant"(tm). We avoid
> to wait for the Board to nominate someone.
> So, we become able to nominate a temporary PO.
> (*) Hoping to avoid :
> Go down, Moses,
> Way down in Egypt's land,
> Tell old Pharaoh,
> Let my people go.
> Best regards,
> Le 21/02/2013 18:45, Megan C. Robertson a écrit :
> > Greetings, dear hearts
> > Once upon a time there were four people: Their names were Everybody,
> > Somebody, Nobody, and Anybody. Whenever there was an important job to
> > do Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have
> > done it, but Nobody did it. When Nobody did it, Everybody got angry
> > because it was Everybody’s job. Everybody thought Somebody would do
> > it, but Nobody realized that Nobody would do it. So consequently
> > Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done
> > in the first place.
> > This rather sounds like the Policy Group J
> > Hence the need for someone, we’ll call them the Policy Officer for the
> > time being, being tasked with actually doing all this editing and
> > updating stuff that is chewed over here in the Policy Group… the
> > general tidying up, checking grammar and spelling, making the HTML go,
> > etc., is a useful background task, then when the Policy Group actually
> > decides on any change, that can then be entered in at the right place…
> > without anyone needing to worry about who was going to do it.
> > Hugs from Megan
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:*Ian G
> > [mailto:iang AT cacert.org]
> > *Sent:* 21 February 2013 17:24
> > *To:*
> > cacert-policy AT lists.cacert.org
> > *Subject:* Re: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST)
> > Having discussed, read responses, and thought about it for a few days,
> > I am thinking now that the answer lies in policy.
> > Because we have been challenged  on an issue of Policy, we should
> > get the Policy right.
> > Therefore, I'm thinking in terms of copying p20100306 straight into
> > the appropriate place in PoP:
> > ======================ADD at end of PoP#2:
> > *2. Basic Model*:
> > ...
> > 2.n+1 Editors may make the following changes, where
> > it is clear that the change does not change the policy:
> > * fixes to errors in grammar and spelling,
> > * anchors, HTML errors, URLs & formatting,
> > * COD numbers and formatting, and
> > * other minutiae, as agreed under 2.3.
> > Such changes are to be notified to the policy group, and are to be
> > folded into effect, etc, without further ado.
> > ========================END OF ADDITION.
> > With some improvement of course :) How do people feel about that?
> > iang
> >  Cost-wise, it looks like we are going to spend around 2-4 weeks on
> > this regardless of how we deal with it. We have been told to spend
> > time writing down stuff we already know, we have consensus on, and is
> > established practice over many years. A.k.a. bureaucracy. Which will
> > hold up our policy work. Either way, we don't get out of the challenge
> > without *at least a vote* . Which is expensive, dammit! Which we
> > should make count... Therefore, let's turn this into an opportunity
> > and fix it in the policy. This way, we lead.
> > On 20/02/13 06:30 AM, Ian G wrote:
> >> Software Assessment in its last telco meeting declined to take some
> >> new policy changes with links modifications, according to p20100306:
> >> Policy Officer may make the following changes,
> >> where it is clear that the change does not
> >> change the policy:
> >> URLs to track any links that move,
> >> grammatical errors,
> >> anchors, HTML errors & formatting,
> >> COD numbers and formatting
> >> other minutiae,
> >> They said that, as the Policy Officer position is not listed in the
> >> Officer's page, they decline to recognise the effect of the motion.
> >> Motion p20100306 has been very valuable because it has meant we can
> >> do things without wasting everyone's time. Policy group attention is
> >> our most valuable resource, we don't want to squander it. Following a
> >> suitable notification, it's done and complete, and policy group can
> >> concentrate more on real work.
> >> Still, the message is clear, Software Assessment have decided to stop
> >> after 3 years of success. I want to preserve the intent of the
> >> motion, and I see three possibilities:
> >> 1. vote on a policy officer.
> >> 2. adjust the above words so they say Policy Team instead
> >> of Officer, and add a caveat that the changes are
> >> notified to policy group (our general practice anyway).
> >> 3. incorporate words into PoP to that effect.
> >> What do people think? Prefer 1,2,3 or something else?
> >> I apologise in advance, but it looks like we're in for another vote
> >> on stuff we already have strong consensus on, and strong practice.
> >> iang
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> <http://www.avg.com>
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- RE: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST), Peter Williams, 02/23/2013
- Re: improving p20100306 - minor changes (TRIAL POST), Guillaume ROMAGNY, 02/23/2013
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